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joint relief
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Old 09-21-2003, 06:14 AM
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joint relief

I just finished 10 weeks of winny and like Ivan said my joints feel like an 80 year old man at 24. I stay sore. I was wondering if I run 400 mg deca a week post cycle will it help my joints come back. Or what else can I do. I had great results with win, but I do not know if I will ever do it again.
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Old 09-21-2003, 03:16 PM
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You may first want to try Glucosamine 1500mg /Chondroitin 800mg a day for 2-3 weeks to see if you get any relief. Both are OTC (over-the-counter) and can be found at GNC, walmart, etc. This has worked for me when coming off Winstrol.
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Old 09-21-2003, 04:40 PM
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I have had good luck with glucosamine...
10 wks winny...ouch!
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Old 09-21-2003, 04:47 PM
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i just started glucosamine and I will add in the other before I try the dec. Thanks
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Old 09-21-2003, 04:53 PM
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Dont foget fish oil and MSM! A lot of grapplers use those. Then there is rHGH. Thats what i'm looking for to rebuild my back.. Dont forget glucosamine screws up your insuin resistance. TW.
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Old 09-21-2003, 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by twistedneck
Dont forget glucosamine screws up your insuin resistance. TW.


New evidence in the New England Medical Journal September 2003 showed a new study conducted with Diabetic patients to test the effects of glucosamine and insulin resistance. Diabetics who took glucosamine 1500mg for 3 months showed no change in their HbA1C (a test used to predict the average glucose in the body over 3 month period-if there was insulin resistance due to glucosamine the HbA1C would have been elevated). From this study physicians have been more comfortable prescibing 1500mg of glucosamine to their diabetic patients with osteoporosis.


Here was the study for those interested


Can Glucosamine be Safely Used in Diabetes Patients?

Lead author: Linda Jo Rinkor, M.S., R.Ph.

Background

Glucosamine, which is synthesized in the body, is an essential element of glycosaminoglycans, glycoproteins, and glycolipids. Glycosaminoglycans, or mucopolysaccharides, function as the building blocks of tendons, ligaments, cartilage, synovial fluid, blood vessels, heart valves, and mucus membranes. Exogenous glucosamine, in either the sulfate or hydrochloride salt form, is promoted for use in osteoarthritis as an alternative to non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs.1 It has been suggested that exogenous glucosamine inhibits N-glycosylation. This, in turn, reduces metalloproteinases (MMP), nitric oxide, and prostaglandin E2, which play key roles in joint damage associated with osteoarthritis.2

Research had suggested that consumption of glucosamine sulfate may increase insulin resistance and decrease blood glucose control or decrease insulin production. In 1999 the Arthritis Foundation made a statement that diabetes patients taking glucosamine sulfate may need more frequent blood-glucose monitoring, as a result of animal studies showing glucosamine to induce insulin resistance.1,3-5 Thus, patients with type 2 diabetes are often cautioned that glucosamine might exacerbate their diabetes. About 40% of Americans over the age of 60 have osteoarthritis, and up to 15% of Americans over the age of 50 have type 2 diabetes. Many patients have an overlap of these two diseases. Glucosamine is increasingly used by diabetes patients and others to treat osteoarthritis. An important new study now suggests glucosamine hydrochloride with chondroitin and manganese supplementation does not cause clinically significant changes in glucose metabolism in patients with type 2 diabetes.6

Study Synopsis

In a placebo-controlled, double-blind, randomized clinical trial, 22 patients were randomized to receive Cosamin DS (500 mg glucosamine hydrochloride, 400 mg chondroitin sulfate, 5 mg manganese, and 66 mg ascorbic acid) and 12 patients were randomized to placebo. The purpose of the study was to evaluate effects of glucosamine on glycemic control in patients with type 2 diabetes. Patients took three tablets daily of Cosamin DS or placebo for 90 days. After 90 days of treatment, Cosamin DS did NOT significantly increase hemoglobin A1c levels (measurement of glycemic control). Mean hemoglobin A1c levels increased from 6.43% to 6.50% in the glucosamine group and decreased from 6.25% to 6.09% in the placebo group. An analysis of variance showed no significant differences between the glucosamine and placebo group in hemoglobin A1c levels (p=0.20). The authors concluded that oral glucosamine supplementation does not result in clinically significant changes in glucose metabolism in type 2 diabetes patients.6

Commentary

The above study was small, but was a human study designed using normal dosages of glucosamine. Most of the previous studies implicating that glucosamine may exacerbate diabetes were based on animal models using very high parenteral glucosamine dosages (up to 435,363 mg/kg/day). Recommended oral dosage for humans is about 20 mg/kg/day. In animal studies, the large glucosamine dosages were shown to decrease insulin secretion and/or induce insulin resistance in peripheral tissues. Research in humans with normal glucose metabolism suggests the effect of glucosamine on glucose metabolism is less marked than animals.1,4-8

Is there a difference between glucosamine sulfate and glucosamine hydrochloride? Cosamin DS contains glucosamine hydrochloride. Even though glucosamine is administered in a salt form, it is likely the salt is cleaved off in the stomach. Glucosamine base is completely ionized in the stomach. Laboratory data suggests the glucosamine base, hydrochloride, and sulfate salt form may be equally active; however, there are no direct comparative clinical studies.7

Is 90 days an adequate length of time to determine the effects of glucosamine on glycemic control? In another randomized, double-blind placebo controlled trial, 212 patients with knee osteoarthritis were randomly assigned 1500 mg oral glucosamine sulfate or placebo once daily for three years. This study was designed to evaluate the long-term effects of glucosamine on osteoarthritis progression. Throughout the study, routine laboratory tests showed no significant abnormalities in system organs or metabolic functions in the two groups. No change in glycemic homeostasis, with fasting plasma glucose concentrations decreasing slightly, was reported in the glucosamine group. However, a subpopulation of type 2 diabetes patients was not identified in this study.8

Cosamin DS is a combination product containing glucosamine, chondroitin, and manganese. Can this data be generalized to glucosamine alone? As far as effectiveness of glucosamine, there is no evidence that the combination has greater benefit than either glucosamine or chondroitin alone. The National Institutes of Health (NIH) is sponsoring its first clinical trial (16 week, parallel group, double-blind randomized clinical trial) of glucosamine in combination with chondroitin sulfate. There is no evidence that either chondroitin or manganese alone affects glycemic control.5,7

What is the bottom line? It appears to be safe recommending glucosamine supplementation to your osteoarthritis patients who also have diabetes [Evidence level B, lower quality RCT].6 However, be on the safe side and remind diabetes patients to monitor their blood sugars extra close after starting glucosamine.

Levels of Evidence

In accordance with the trend towards Evidence-Based Medicine, we are citing the LEVEL OF EVIDENCE for the statements we publish.

Level
Definition

A
High-quality randomized controlled trial (RCT)

High-quality meta-analysis (quantitative systematic review)

B
Nonrandomized clinical trial

Nonquantitative systematic review

Lower quality RCT

Clinical cohort study

Case-control study

Historical control

Epidemiologic study

C
Consensus

Expert opinion

D
Anecdotal evidence

In vitro or animal study


Adapted from Siweck J, et al. How to write an evidence-based clinical review article. Am Fam Physician 2002;65:251-8.

References

Gregory PJ. Glucosamine and insulin resistance. Therapeutic Research Center. Pharmacist's Letter/Prescriber's Letter1999;15:151003.
Simon LS. Future therapeutics for osteoarthritis. American College of Rheumatology 2002 Annual Meeting. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/445101.
Medscape Medical News. Study suggests glucosamine sulfate may promote development of insulin resistance. New York (MedscapeWire). April 18, 2000. http://www.medscape.com/ viewarticle/411789.
Gregory PJ. Does glucosamine increase serum lipid levels and blood pressure? Therapeutic Research Center. Pharmacist's Letter/Prescriber's Letter 2001;17:171115.
Jellin JM, Gregory PJ, Batz F, et al. Glucosamine sulfate (monograph). Therapeutic Research Faculty. Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database. http://www.naturaldatabase.com. (Accessed August 12, 2003).
Scroggie DA, Albright A, Harris MD. The effect of glucosamine-chondroitin supplementation on glycosylated hemoglobin levels in patients with type 2 diabetes mellitus. Arch Intern Med 2003;163:1587-90.
Jellin JM, Gregory PJ, Batz F, et al. Glucosamine hydrochloride (monograph). Therapeutic Research Faculty. Natural Medicines Comprehensive Database. http://www.naturaldatabase.com. (Accessed August 12, 2003).
Reginster JY, Deroisy R, Rovati LC, et al. Long-term effects of glucosamine sulphate on osteoarthritis progression: a randomised, placebo-controlled clinical trial. Lancet 2001;357:251-6.
September 2003
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Last edited by kronah; 09-21-2003 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 09-22-2003, 04:30 AM
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Kronah you are the one of the most well informed dudes on the board. You are a pool of knowledge. I always read the artiicles you have about everything. I think it is important for people to research things before the put them in their body and a lot of idiots today don't do that.
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Old 09-22-2003, 06:29 PM
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same thing happened to me the jooint pain was crazy when i was on winny tabs and or zambons...
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Old 09-24-2003, 11:09 AM
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winny gives almost everyoen i know who takes it joint pain, try a deca cycle if u want to bulk a50's will even help lubricate joints, glucosamine & msm is always on the list of joint supps, all EFA's and lots of H20 will help as well.
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Old 09-25-2003, 04:32 AM
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Green Tea Fights Inflamation and cartilage loss.

Quote:
Green tea extracts protect cartilage

A study conducted at the University of Sheffield Medical School, in Sheffield, England, and reported in the March 2002 issue of the Journal of Nutrition, investigated the effect of green tea catechins on human and bovine cartilage cultures. Although these polyphenols have been previously demonstrated to alleviate inflammation in mice, it had been unknown whether they protected the joints.

Green tea catechins were added to bovine nasal and joint cartilage cultures as well as three cultures of human cartilage that had been removed during joint replacement or other surgery which provided osteoarthritic, rheumatoid and macroscopically normal human cartilage. The researchers sought to determine the amount of proteoglycan degradation as well as type II collagen breakdown, induced by exposure of the cultures to several proinflammatory substances.

The green tea catechin epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) prevented tumor necrosis factor-stimulated proteoglycan degradation in the bovine nasal cartilage culture, while the catechins epicatechin gallate (ECG) and epicatechin (EC) inhibited interleukin 1-alpha stimulated degradation. In the bovine joint cartilage culture, EGCG prevented proteoglycan breakdown when challenged with several inflammatory substances, as did ECG. In human cartilage, ECG significantly inhibited proteoglycan breakdown in osteoarthritic, rheumatoid and nonaffected cartilage treated with interleukin 1-beta and tumor necrosis factor. EGCG, ECG and epigallocatechin (EGC) reduced the degradation of type II collagen in bovine nasal cartilage when treated with interleukin 1-alpha.

The catechins' benefits may be due to both their antiinflammatory properties as well as an antiproteolytic effect which protects the cartilage. It remains to be demonstrated whether oral administration of green tea catechins can elevate levels in the joints sufficiently to prevent cartilage breakdown.

From LEF.org

March 06, 2002
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Joint relief
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Old 09-28-2003, 05:35 PM
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Joint relief

I would try some ice on the area that is hurt. Deca would also be a nice addition to help the joints get lubed up so to speak. Next i would order some of Lee Labradas joint formula, it comes in fruit punch and is the SHIT. I would take some extra anti oxidants to help with free radicals such as vit C, E and ala. EFAs will help also.

Maybe also try to take a week off and when you workout warm up with cardio for 10 min. H20 is very important as well.
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