Filters

[Tman2002]

Anyone found a trick to filter you gear? I've tried heating but nothing seems to work with my stuff I just add a little extra BA and bake it about 4 times.

[kronah]

Just out of curiosity what kind of gear are you filtering (homebrew, QV, mexipharm etc) ? Just for the record and the newbees out there filtering will not sterilize your gear it will only remove the tiny micro sized particles from the oil. Together with filtering, baking, and using BA one can get fairly close to a sterile solution. For filtering my home brewed gear I use a .45 um whatman filter. You can purchase these at numerous places

http://www.kaotikchemistry.com/gpage3.html

Let me know if you need any other help

[Bigbadasian]

|--[\\\]>--------- If you are baking it to try and take away some of the 'pain' you are feeling (you said "i've tried heating adn nothing seems to work--i'm assuming this i what you're trying to accomplish) isn't ADDING more BA defeating the purpose of this...usually too much BA is what causes the 'pain"

[kronah]

Tman I'm a little confused with exactly what you are trying to do with your gear. Like bigA says are you heating because of injection pain, or because you have homebrew and there are floaters in the oil? Try to elaborate a little more so we can better answer your question.

[Tman2002]

I always thought that the filter did help make it more sterile. Not sure why I thought this or what I was suppose to be filtering out. If it doesnt help make it more sterile then i dont give a shit. Thanks guys

[Tman2002]

Oh yeah its homebrew.....

[rAJJIN]

bro I always use a whatman and if its fina I also
highly recomend the coffe filter step.
as much as I like Kronah and I know he is smarter then I when it
comes to chemistry, I never bake my goods. the oil before the hormone is added I have baked but once the hormone is in the mixture i only heat it up enough to dissolve it and then filter it, not at all bake it.
Ive always thought in my mind it could effect it the quality of your hormone.

[kronah]

Baking your finished product whether it be tren or some other anabolic is somewhat contraversial, I personally use both methods and to this date have not had a infection. From my experience I believe that using a water bath at the end can only help, but in the end it is probably not necessary.

Here is what I do to insure sterility:

Before adding anything to oil, I take the amount of oil to be use (actually a little over) and place in a vial or some other glass container and place in a water bath (pan with water) and I heat the oil for about 20 minutes, the water should be boiling. After your done cover with a watch glass or some type of lid, you don’t want air particulates in the oil.

Prepare mixture with active, BA (benzyl alcohol). BA is added to prevent any bacteria from growing, concentrations of 1% can be used but 3-5% is the norm.

The next step is to filter your oil & hormone mixture. The main purpose in filtering is to remove particulate, it is not really for sterilizing. I use a .45 whatman first, and if you are really anal like myself, I then run it through a .22 filter.

When everything has been added to Vial insert a pin (important) to vent and place back in water bath for another 15-20 minutes. This last step helps in thoroughly dispersing active compound and provides one last shot at killing any heat sensitive bacteria.

My methods may seem la little overkill but whenever you are working in an environment such as your kitchen,I feel its the best method.

Like I said above you will probably be fine with either using the heat at the end or not but I feel the water bath provides even heat distribution rather than just from bottom up. Most kitchen chemists will most likely use their stove burners, thus the water will catch the oil if it accidentally gets knocked over.However, either way is fine.

Realize this is only one way to help sterilize your product. This is what works for me, hope it helps everyone.

[rAJJIN]

I agree, very simmilar to the way i do it, minus the last part.
after I run it thru the whatman it goes into the sterile vial and is ready for use. Much like you are anal bout it being sterile,
I am anal thinking the heat could damage the hormone. Most finished producys will say rite on them to keep away from direct light and keep in a cool place out of direct tempatures.
I know Im probly just paranoid, hell for a long time I was afraid the whatman would filter out some of the "good stuff" and
make it less potent. Its all good brother Im sure each Kitchen chemist has his own littl ways and theories. Great isnt it.
talk to you soon my man,
rAJJ

[Tman2002]

I can handle a lot of BA in my mix where as the same stuff might make my buddy sore for a week. I'm just worried about getting dome kind of bacterial infection.

[KAOTIKCHEM]

Originally posted by kronah
Just out of curiosity what kind of gear are you filtering (homebrew, QV, mexipharm etc) ? Just for the record and the newbees out there filtering will not sterilize your gear it will only remove the tiny micro sized particles from the oil. Together with filtering, baking, and using BA one can get fairly close to a sterile solution. For filtering my home brewed gear I use a .45 um whatman filter. You can purchase these at numerous places

http://www.kaotikchemistry.com/gpage3.html

Let me know if you need any other help

I am going to respectfully beg to differ with this statement.

The PVDF/GDX filter that we sell ARE designed to filter out microbacteria thus leaving the solution sterile.

You will find a bunch of pre-chem/pre-med students quick to start belching out facts of many viruses being so small that they will not be able to be filtered out with these filters and they are correct BUT...

What they have not learned in school yet is that viruses typically do not have a long life span and need host cells to stay alive. So if somehow you have gotten a host cell containing a virus into your solution it is most likely that it is large enough to be filtered out due to the host cell size, and if you have a virus in the solution with no host cell, the probability of it living in the harsh conditions caused by the addition of BA are slim to none.

[rAJJIN]

Kc,
did i ever mention how much I appreciate having you here
brother!! I didnt understand any of that but I beleive ya.
Damn I think KC gets my Vote for Governer of California!

[KAOTIKCHEM]

HA!

I should have run lol.
If a hooker can run why cant a home chemistry kit maker?

[kronah]

KC just for the record I have both a masters in chemistry and a BS in biology and work in a respected lab but I admit I am always still learning and I am not right always right. Please help me clarify this issue. From what I remember in microbiology is that you cannot kill bacteria with just heat alone, this is why autoclaves use a combination of heat and pressure to sterilize. Also many people fail to realize that killing the bacteria is only have the battle, you still must get rid of any spores that may be in the solution. Now I'll be honest I have never researched the sizes of bacteria spores or the smallest bacteria size but I was under the impression that some were smaller than .22 and the .45 um. Perhaps I am wrong with this thinking, I will try to dig up some numbers tonight.

[Tman2002]

Spores is what i was worried about but i wasnt too sure on what I was saying and didnt want to look like and ass.

[kronah]

I did some research last night and dug up some of my books to research .the topic of sterilization and microbiology. With my results I decided to ask the experts over at the conversion board, who are the gurus of kitchen chemistry. They were nice enough to respond to my post regarding the confusion of sterility.


Originally posted by me:
There seems to be a lot of confusion across different boards about whether or not using a .45 whatman filters actually sterilizes your final solution. I have heard from those who sell the .45 that they are designed to sterilize the final solution. Now I have been looking up the different bacteria sizes (smallest .3um and even nanobacteria sizes .05-.01) and have found some ranging lower than .45um .

Ecoli: 1.1 to 1.5 um
Mycoplasma: .22-.45 um
Staph .44-1.5 um
Endospores .22-.45um

Is it safe to say that using a .45 size filter will eliminate 99% of the bacteria but will ultimately leave spores in the final solution which may cause infection? If this is the case, will the BA adequately create a bacterialstatic environment at 1-5% ? I appreciate any info on clarifying this confusing topic

Reply by moderator “Skyefire”

Yes the BA will do the job. Other then that there is nothing to clarify, your dead on. My personal perfrance is to use a .22 micron filter. Its much slower but will remove practically all bacteria from your gear. I always use 5% BA too. That is about 5 time more than is needed but I don't mind the overkill. (better safe then sorry)

Don't lose perspecive on this. The main purpose of filtering is to remove any particals from your gear. Dust, lint, and powder impurities (flow agents, dust, exra) are all more likely to cause an infection then dead bacteria.

The other thing to consider is that most infections form injections (I am refering to medical use not gear) come from improper cleaning of the injection site. Contrary to popular belief an alcohol pad does not sterillize the skin. It just cleans it. You could actully do the same thing with soap and sterile water. The pads are just convenite.

Reply by superchicken (administrator):
yup, exactly. so even though it is said the filters sterilize, they really dont fully sterilize. but, for our purposes, even i still say that they sterilize. what does make it though is usually negligable, there are some things that could make it through, and survive the bac enviornment, but theres really not much we can do. and i bet mex gear even though factory produced, prob has the same stuff in it too.

one person said the endotoxins could be a contributor to the sick feeling at the beg of a cycle. how much, im not sure though.
-------------
Hope this clears up some of the confusion.
You can check out the link to see my original thread

http://www.anabolic-alchemy.com/ under the alchemists forum

[rAJJIN]

Kronah,
so Kc was correct rite?
either way you guys are both great members and glad to have
some educated guys here to help us with our conversion
questions or problems.
rAJJ

[kronah]

Posted above question at the gurus at the conversion boarder. Just received a reply this afternoon from the adminstrator.

reply from admin:
kronah,
Here is the big misconseption:

the filters are sterile....they come sterile. THEY DO NOT MAKE ANYTING STERILE> wbhat they do do is remove unwanted particles from your conversion.


http://www.conversionboard.com/forum...opic.php?t=324


THEY DO NOT MAKE ANYTHING STERILE.

chem

[rAJJIN]

If your talkin about chem the kit supplier he can eat a DICK!
Ive seen first hand how well his fina kits work. he has been ran off from here many times and I have no use for him, Infact I beleive he still owes bigA some advertising Fees`.

he tried to send me another fina kit free of charge,
I told him to save it as Im not intrested in wasting anymore pellets. Thats my personall experience with him, aside from
the debate you and Kc have going.

From the way i understand it On what you have pasted above
it says by superchicken "but for our purpose, even i still say they steralize"

matbe I have just misunderstood but it seems that it does
steralize for what we need them for?
rAJJIN

[KAOTIKCHEM]

First and formst I want to say that I am keeping this strictly on a debate basis and I intend to flame no one here. written word is very easily miscontrued....

It is true that some microbacteria are smaller than what .45um filters are designed to filter but there is ABSOLUTLY no truth in
The following statement:

reply from admin:
kronah,
Here is the big misconseption:

the filters are sterile....they come sterile. THEY DO NOT MAKE ANYTING STERILE> wbhat they do do is remove unwanted particles from your conversion.


http://www.conversionboard.com/foru...topic.php?t=324


THEY DO NOT MAKE ANYTHING STERILE.

This is completely absurd if you know anything about COMMON bacteria and its size. Its like saying a coffee filter wont keep coffee gounds from getting into your coffee.

True some bacteria is small enough to make it through a .45 filter but it is also true that BA helps sterilize as well, and the odds of getting live bacteria in the solution that might cuase problems after all this are skewed largely in favor of the negative.

AND lets not forget the fact that people have immune systems which is the best defense against infection.

So in a nut shell what you do at home with BA and sterilizing filters is going to be just as good if not most likely better than the sterilizing procedures used on many veterinary grade products.

[kronah]

rAJJIN,
~Not sure if this chem is the same guy or not that you are talking about. All I was trying to do was to post this on 2 other conversion boards where kitchen chemistry is all they talk about. From my understanding, all of the mods agreed that using a .45 comes pretty darn close to sterilizing the gear. Unfortunately do to the small size of the endospores they can sometimes readily pass through the filter. This is where adding BA comes in. BA creates a toxic environment that prevents these endospores from germinating into active bacteria. So together using both a whatman filter and ----> BA you can create a sterilized solution. I am still looking for an official experiment that shows results for the whatman filter and sterilization of pharmaceautical products. Hopefully I'll find it tonight.

[rAJJIN]

well Im almost certain its him and although a lot of guys like him,
Myself I have no use for him or his products.
other then that I didnt mean to meddle in your debate :)

[kronah]

KC sorry I didn't see your last above post. I completely agree with your post and I think it pretty much sums our debate. I think this is a very important topic for kitchen chemists. I hope there were no hard feelings. You are great in my book KC /t\

[KAOTIKCHEM]

There are never hard feelings with me if the person I am debating keeps things on a factual and friendly level like you have.