the right way to do frontloading and ending with a fast ester in a cycle!

[blond_bomber2]

hey bros im in a hurry right now.i have to go to tha gym then work!!...tonight i will post the best info in the subjects above...and anyone who commented on the BENZ thread can argue here!!....i will get a couple of artciles by mods like nautica and i think andy13......to post up..tonight....later!

[Paul Bunyan]

If I front load I do it with orals. I never cared for prop or suspension. The loading thing never appealed to me because I compete in powerlifting and I'm on most of the time. There is merit to ending a cycle with faster acting compounds if bringing the hpta back online quickly is a concern. They clear out of your system quickly and you can start your clomid/hcg program right away.

For the most part I'm keeping my doses to 500mg/wk. Half from an anabolic like deca or EQ and the other half from test. I have no trouble maintaining my weight at around 308 and my strength continues to increase. My cycles last 6wks with 2 weeks off during which time I use one 2000 i.u amp of hcg every 4 days. I save the orals and higher doses for the last 8wks before a contest. Also, during the lower dose periods I only need anti-e's during the 2wk off period.

PB

[Dizzy]

I like the idea of frontloading with suspension or prop AND an oral like dbol. If your using dbol to "jumpstart" your cycle...then its kind of like using dbol only. We all know that isn't the best way to stack. Now use 75-100mg of prop or suspension a day AND dbol the first 4-6 weeks of your cycle....and I think you would benefit much more.

Although I do not recomend the newbie to do it this way. For them I would recomend prop or suspension only along with their longer acting esters like enanthate, and their anabolic injectable (like eq or deca). Then add the orals next time around.

[Ry Roid]

If you start w/ your longer acting test and anabolics than end w/ fast acting test and anabolics than when your off your off and can use the time to clean up. I wouldn't have it ANY other way.

RY

[Dizzy]

Originally posted by Ry Roid
If you start w/ your longer acting test and anabolics than end w/ fast acting test and anabolics than when your off your off and can use the time to clean up. I wouldn't have it ANY other way.

RY

Definately. ENDING with shorter esters is also less cycle time wasted. Why let levels drop off while waiting to do clomid?

[preist943]

reply from the ? on the benz post id take the susp over the prop any day and if its cheaper hey lol a plus

[buffarat]

I disagree..........Take prop because your body doesnt have to use the cyp or enth that is in the sust first.......I read somewhere that the human body will use these two instead of a fast actor like prop.........If you are front loading go with the prop. I can speak from experience on this........I have done both and prop definately kicks you in the ass tons faster. Hope this helps, buffarat

[wolverine]

Originally posted by buffarat
I disagree..........Take prop because your body doesnt have to use the cyp or enth that is in the sust first.......I read somewhere that the human body will use these two instead of a fast actor like prop

It can't do that. Reason being that the ester attached to the test molecule regulates how fast it is broken down and used in the body. The prop ester will be broken down much faster than the enanthate or cypionate ester, therefore it would hit first. The body can't disreguard one and choose the other to work with first. It is a mater of how fast it gets in the blood stream. I agree with using prop at the end of the cycle like RY said. Makes it easy to estimate clearance times.

[buffarat]

True in that the ester is broken down faster.......but, the fact that the sust is a time release AS....I was informed that you dont use the prop like one would think.......Im not saying im right im learning on this one too.........I understand prop typically is broken down faster. But the info i was given ( although it could be illegit. ) states its like protein in that the body used each strain as needed......If the cyp , enth, or whatever is present then it will take which ever is needed. I heard this and said the same thing....but after running both at different times i found that the prop in sust doesnt always hit me the way it does when i run it alone. I was taking heavier doses alone but I just thought my experience with it should be noted. please note i am just giving info and a perspective.....not going against what you have stated. Take it for what its worth....If you run prop alone with out the other tests as a front load you are better off in my book.

Good luck , buffarat

[Dizzy]

Originally posted by buffarat
I disagree..........Take prop because your body doesnt have to use the cyp or enth that is in the sust first.......I read somewhere that the human body will use these two instead of a fast actor like prop.........If you are front loading go with the prop. I can speak from experience on this........I have done both and prop definately kicks you in the ass tons faster. Hope this helps, buffarat

Are you disagreeing with priest943? Because he was talking about suspension....not sustanon.

[wolverine]

Originally posted by buffarat
True in that the ester is broken down faster.......but, the fact that the sust is a time release AS....I was informed that you dont use the prop like one would think.......Im not saying im right im learning on this one too.........I understand prop typically is broken down faster. But the info i was given ( although it could be illegit. ) states its like protein in that the body used each strain as needed......If the cyp , enth, or whatever is present then it will take which ever is needed.

I understand what you are thinking, but it's impossible. You can't put three of (basically) the same drug (test is test, just the ester is different) in your body and it "decide" which one to use first. It will use whichever one breaks down fastest, in this case prop.

Also, sust doesn't have cyp or enanthate in it. it has:

testosterone propionate- 30 mg
testosterone phenylpropionate- 60 mg
testosterone isocaproate- 60mg
testosterone decanoate- 100 mg

First two are short acting, last two are long acting.

[Dizzy]

Ummm....Mr. Blond_Bommer sir. Are you gonna contribute to your thread? LMAO!

[blond_bomber2]

hey bros......before i post the articles i got from some bros....i will say what i have to say as simple as possible and short!!..first frontloading--when i read some replies on this thread i saw my anwser so dont think im taking credit ryroid!!...obiously you i and i know you hit the point of frontloading.......frontloading is when you take a long acting ester at the begining of a cycle and double your dose of what you were gonna use.say you are gonna use 250mg a week of cyp....to frontload it you will have to do 750mg of cyp!...for the first two weeks of a cycle!......then the rest would be regular dose of 250mg.......for as long as you want your cycle to be.i advice to do cyp for 6 weeks,,without adding the two weeks of frontloading.which equals 8 weeks!......now the reason for frontloading is 1. to get your blood levels higher quicker!....
2. high blood levels fast give you faster gains in strength and mass...

now ending a cycle with a fast ester test!....preffered by many prop or suspension...now depending on if you have used prop before you will definetly want to up the dose every cycle...so lets say you frontload test cyp and use the test cyp for a total of 8 weeks....then do atleast 2 maybe 3 weeks of a fast ester lets say prop....100mg everyday....then after a total of ten weeks with cyp and prop you start clomid and or hcg or hcg then clomid....ending with a fast ester gives you the benefit of 1. avoiding test levels to crash....2. allows you to start clomid therapy right away so you can kick your htpa levels back to normal etc....and keep maximum gains....since you have frontloaded cyp and ended it at week 8 you have to weeks without cyp in your system....then you right away start test prop or susp for 2 or 3 weeks....then when you end that you can start clomid therapy because both test used in cycle are out of range from affecting clomid thearpy/recovery....now i have seen bros on elite talk about this method all the time!!..why?..because pros use this method!!..and is just a win win situation when you do everything right!......thanx everyone for reading if bros have comments.questions.....or arguments take it with ppl who already psoted in this thread...like ryroid!.sorry bro but i cant be around for atleas a couple of weeks to anwser the questions about these subjects..caus i just started my cycle..and i always barely have time to get online!!.....all i do is train eat recover and sleep......when my cycle is over i will have time to post a litrtle..and bros i will have to erase the psot i made.....because of certain reaosn that cannot be explained!....and please no one quote my psot!!..because i can erase that!!.thanx bros...

[blond_bomber2]

Why to use a "fast ester" at cycles end. Examples (post #1)

As" Dr.Robert Banner" has pointed out it is a very good idea to switch to ,or add a steroid to the end of a cycle, that is in rapid ester form.

Before I can tell you why it is a good idea to include this technique I would like to explain esters briefly.
Oil based steroids are packaged up in "esters" to allow for a longer, slower, and potentially more constant bloood hormone level. Esterification inactivates the steroid molecule temporarily. This is beneficial to the steroid user and especially the men receiving replacement testosterone as less trips to the doctor and or fewer shots per month are needed in order to see good blood hormone levels.
The only "problem" with esterfication for the steroid user is that the hormone or hormones of choice will take some time to reach muscle building levels within the system. This is why doing a loading dose is important. Simply put a loading dose is a larger than would be weekly dose done immediately at the beginning of a cycle. This technique allows blood hormone levels to reach the desired levels sooner than they could if a loading dose was not done.
Let me make it clear that loading a hormone in the proper way does not result in skyrocketing hormone levels or levels of blood hormone that are greater than what would be attained by not loading.....it just gets hormone levels up to the desirred levels sooner. This is good for two reasons...#1. Gains start sooner and #2. One can potentailly be "on" for a shorter period of time while seeing the same gains. Ie: an 8week cycle as opposed to a 10-11 week cycle.
Since I believe it is best to inject all slower estered steroids and testosterone twice per week of once every 4 days I will calculate the load in the following manner.........one takes the amount of steroid that one plans to use per week and divides it by 7. Then one takes 5 days worth of injnection and adds it to the amount that would is planned for each biweekly injection. ie: If you plan on doing 500 of test cyp per week then you you take the daily amount, which is about 70 mg , and multiply it by five which equals 350mg and then add 250, which is the amount of your biweekly injection. So a good loading dose here would be about 600 mg. You could add a little more.
The slower the ester the more important loading becomes.
Some men that use very large amounts of gear on a weekly basis may choose to spread the load out over the first one or two weeks of the cycle, although it is not necessary to do this and blood hormone levels will be reached sooner by loading all on day one in various injection sites.
NOTE: It is a good practise to never inject more than 3 cc into any one spot as more than this can result in sterile abscess formation which can convert to an infected abscess...bad stuff!
ALSO NOTE: that this practise is done all the time in the medical field and with some very powerful drugs and with no adverse affects.

Anyway....getting back to esterfication....An ester is a molecular chain composed mainly of carbon and hydrogen atomes. This chain is usually attached to the hormone at the 17th carbon position(there are exceptions as some are joined at "position three")

Getting back to why we use fast releasing esters at cycles end....well it is very simple really, you see the transition time between peak blood hormone levels and the time it takes for the steroid to "clear" the system after ones last shot and before clomid therapy can be a emotionally depressing and a waste of time. For example, test cyp takes about 14 days to clear the system if doses are not huge. During the last weak there is not enough steroid in the blood to result in anabolism but too much for HPTA recovery. This can result in an odd feeling in the sensitive ,also ideally one wants natural test production to start as soon after the last injection as possible so recovery time is not wasted. This will then allow you to "stay off" sooner and will also be less hormonally traumatic for the system. A quick recovery of natural test production is paramount to keeping gains from a cycle.
One dosen't want to be floating around in "no mans land" with hormone levels too high for recovery but too low for gains. This is one resason why "tapering" is a waste of time.
For recreational user this means a quicker more enjoyable recovery is possible. For the highly competitive, that stay "on" for a good part of the year, switching to fast esters at the end of a cycle can help them spend less time between cycles. This is NOT recommended for the vast majority and is irrelavent for those that stay "on" all the time, which is another thing I frown upon, unless you are at the "national level" or professional.

Another reason to switch to a faster ester at the end of a cycle goes like this....it just so happens most of the injectable steroids that DO NOT aromatize are in rapid ester form. The two most commoly used are winstrol depot and trenbolone acetate. These two steroids can be used during the last weeks of a cycle to help "harder up" the gains form a powerful aromatizing hormone such as testosterone. Even with the use of estrogen inhibitors some water gain is usually unavoidable when using testosterone, or very large doses of other aromatizing gear such as EQ. One will notice the hardening affect most as the blood hormone levels of the aromatizable hormone fall. ie: in the last two weeks before clomid therapy begins.

Examples of switching to fast esters at cycles end are as follows...

Test cyp was done with a loading dose on day one and then run for 8 weeks at 700 mg per week and stopped at week 8. Test cyp dose reduced to 300 for week 8 and test prop 50 mg injected evey other day and then during weeks 9 and 10 test prop injected at 125mg every other day. Three to four days after the last shot start clomid therapy as props half life is probably 2 days and starting clomid 3-4 days after the last shot will have allowed the testosterone level to fall to the point were clomid could start to become effective.

#2.
Test cyp as above but this time trenbolone acetate at 50 mg wil be run during weeks 6, 7 , 8 , 9 and 10. The tren will greatly enhance the muscle building affect of this cycle during weeks 6, 7 and 8, at the time when one starts to notice gains slowing down a bit( best gains are usually seen between weeks 2 and 6 of most cycles and for most men) After week 8 gains will start to drop again but the hardness from tren remains as estrogen levels and water retention lessens.
One could run the tren all the way through the cycle as well for a much more dramatic affect but tren for 10 weeks plus test for ten weeks is a very androgenic stack and may not be tolerated by some men if largish doses are needed. Also, some men may choose not to do this in order to keep the overall steroid dose down for various reasons, and health issues being one of them.

Winstrol can be used in place of tren with similar but less dramatic results as can the oral steroids anavar or Halotestin, although I do not recommend running these 17 aa steroid for more than 4 weeks at a time. Winstrol taken IM can be run for a longer time as it avoids the "first pass" upon the liver from oral ingestion. The 17aa steroid is detoxified over several days as opposed to the several hour associated with oral igestion. This is one reason why it makes no sence to drink your winny bro's ..sorry. Not only that but a higher dose of winny is needed for the same affect if it is taken orally.

Proviron at 100mg per day could also be added, either for the duration of the cycle or for the last several weeks, as it has a very short half life and provides a good amount of hardeneing androgen. It also acts as an estrogen inhibitor to some degree and thus reduces water retention from aromatizing hormones. Proviron has made a "come back" of late, even though it is a very weak anabolic, for the above reasons. It should also be noted that proviron binds very strongly to plasma binding proteins such as SHBG and thus this probably allows more of the anabolic hormone used with proviron to be in an unbound state. This could increase gains of course. Also proviron is not 17aa.

There are tons of combo's that can be used...use your imagination.

Happy safe cycles bro's!


RG

credits-from elitefitness..written by member-REALGAINS

[blond_bomber2]

Bro's,

Part two for your viewing & printing pleasure.

Jackyl


ESTER PROFILES


Sustanon: The "king" of testosterone blends.
The four different testosterone esters in this product certainly look appealing to the consumer, there is no denying that. But for the athlete I think it is all just a matter of marketing (Hell, why buy one ester when you can get four?). In clinical situations I can see some strong uses for it. If you were undergoing testosterone replacement therapy for example, you would probably find Sustanon a much more comfortable option than testosterone enanthate. You would need to visit the doctor less frequently for an injection, and blood levels should be more steadily maintained between treatments. But for the bodybuilder who is injecting 4 ampules of Sustanon per week, there is no advantage over other testosterone products. In fact, the high price tag for Sustanon usually makes it a very poor buy in the face of cheaper testosterone enanthate/cypionate. Bodybuilders should probably stop looking at the four ester issue, and stick with totals (Sustanon is just a 250mg testosterone ampule). Were enanthate to be available for say $10 per amp of 250mg, and Sustanon priced nearly double that, buying the Sustanon would be like throwing money away. If you could get nearly double the milligram amount for the same price with enanthate, this is the better product to go with hands down. Leave the high priced stuff for the guys who don't know any better.
IN CONCLUSION
While the advent of esters certainly constitutes an invaluable advance in the field of anabolic steroid medicine, clearly you can see that there is no magic involved here. Esters work in a well-understood and predictable manner, and do not alter the activity of the parent steroid in any way other than to delay its release. Although the lure surrounding various steroid products like testosterone cypionate, Sustanon, Omnadren etc. certainly makes for interesting conversation, realistically it just amounts to misinformation that the athlete would be better off ignoring. Testosterone is testosterone and anyone who is going to tell you one ester form of this (or any) hormone is much better than another one should do a little more research, and a lot less talking.
Acetate: Chemical Structure C2H4O2.
Also referred to as Acetic Acid; Ethylic acid; Vinegar acid; vinegar; Methanecarboxylic acid. Acetate esters delay the release of a steroid for only a couple of days. Contrary to what you may have read, acetate esters do not increase the tendency for fat removal. Again, there is no known mechanism for it to do so. This ester is used on oral primobolan tablets (metenolone acetate), Finaplix (trenbolone acetate) implant pellets, and occasionally testosterone.
Propionate: Chemical Structure C3H6O2.
Also referred to as Carboxyethane; hydroacrylic acid; Methylacetic acid; Ethylformic acid; Ethanecarboxylic acid; metacetonic acid; pseudoacetic acid; Propionic Acid. Propionate esters will slow the release of a steroid for several days. To keep blood levels from fluctuating greatly, propionate compounds are usually injected two to three times weekly. Testosterone propionate and methandriol dipropionate (two separate propionate esters attached to the parent steroid methandriol) are popular items.
Phenylpropionate: Chemical Structure C9H10O2.
Also referred to as Propionic Acid Phenyl Ester. Phenylpropionate will extend the release of active steroid a few days longer than propionate. To keep blood levels even, injections are given at least twice weekly. Durabolin is the drug most commonly seen with a phenylpropionate ester (nandrolone phenylpropionate), although it is also used with testosterone in Sustanon and Omnadren.
Isocarpoate: Chemical Structure C6H12O2.
Also referred to as Isocaproic Acid; isohexanoate; 4-methylvaleric acid. Isocaproate begins to near enanthate in terms of release. The duration is still shorter, with a notable hormone level being sustained for approximately one week. This ester is used with testosterone in the blended products Sustanon and Omnadren.
Caproate: Chemical Structure C6H12O2.
Also referred to as Hexanoic acid; hexanoate; n-Caproic Acid; n-Hexoic acid; butylacetic acid; pentiformic acid; pentylformic acid; n-hexylic acid; 1-pentanecarboxylic acid; hexoic acid; 1-hexanoic acid; Hexylic acid; Caproic acid. This ester is identical to isocarpoate in terms of atom count and weight, but is laid out slightly different (Isocaproate has a split configuration, difficult to explain here but easy to see on paper). Release duration would be very similar to isocaproate (levels sustained for approximately one weak), perhaps coming slightly closer to enanthate due to its straight chain. Caproate is the slowest releasing ester used in Omnadren, which is why most athletes notice more water retention with this compound.
Enanthate: Chemical Structure C7H14O2.
Also referred to as heptanoic acid; enanthic acid; enanthylic acid; heptylic acid; heptoic acid; Oenanthylic acid; Oenanthic acid. Enanthate is one of the most prominent esters used in steroid manufacture (most commonly seen with testosterone but is also used in other compounds like Primobolan Depot). Enanthate will release a steady (yet fluctuating as all esters are) level of hormone for approximately 10-14 days. Although in medicine enanthate compounds are often injected on a bi-weekly or monthly basis, athletes will inject at least weekly to help maintain a uniform blood level.
Cypionate: Chemical Structure C8H14O2.
Also referred to as Cyclopentylpropionic acid, cyclopentylpropionate. Cypionate is a very popular ester here in the U.S., although it is scarcely found outside this region. Its release duration is almost identical to enanthate (10-14 days), and the two are likewise thought to be interchangeable in U.S. medicine. Althletes commonly hold the belief than cypionate is more powerful than enanthate, although realistically there is little difference between the two. The enanthate ester is in fact slightly smaller than cypionate, and it therefore releases a small (perhaps a few milligrams) amount of steroid more in comparison.
Decanoate: Chemical Structure C10H20O2.
Also referred to as decanoic acid; capric acid; caprinic acid; decylic acid, Nonanecarboxylic acid. The Decanoate ester is most commonly used with the hormone nandrolone (as in Deca-Durabolin) and is found in virtually all corners of the world. Testosterone decanoate is also the longest acting constituent in Sustanon, greatly extending its release duration. The release time with Decanoate compounds is listed to be as long as one month, although most recently we are finding that levels seem to drop significantly after two weeks. To keep blood levels more uniform, athletes (as they have always known to do) will follow a weekly injection schedule.
Undecylenate: Chemical Structure C11H20O2.
Also referred to as Undecylenic acid; Hendecenoic acid; Undecenoic acid. This ester is very similar to decanoate, containing only one carbon atom more. Its release duration is likewise very similar (approximately 2-3 weeks), perhaps extending a day or so past that seen with decanoate. Undecylenate seems to be exclusive to the veterinary preparation Equipoise (boldenone undecylenate), although there is no reason it would not work well in human-use preparations (Equipoise certainly works fine for athletes). Again, weekly injections are most common.
Undecanoate: Chemical Structure C11H22O2.
Also referred to as Undecanoic Acid; 1-Decanecarboxylic acid; Hendecanoic acid; Undecylic acid. Undecanoate is not a commonly found ester, and only appears to be used in the nandrolone preparation Dynabolan, and oral testosterone undecanoate (Andriol). Since this ester is chemically very similar to undecylenate (it is only 2 hydrogen atoms larger), it has a similar release duration (approximately 2-3 weeks). Although this ester is used in the oral preparation Andriol, there is no reason to believe it carries any properties unique of other esters. Andriol in fact works very poorly at delivering testosterone, bolstering the idea that oral administration is not the idea use of esterified androgens.
Laurate: Chemical structure C12H24O2.
Also referred to as Dodecanoic acid, laurostearic acid, duodecyclic acid, 1-undecanecarboxylic acid, and dodecoic acid. Laurate is the longest releasing ester used in commercial steroid production, although longer acting esters do exist. Its release duration would be closer to one month than the other esters listed above, although realistically we are probably to expect a notable drop in hormone level after the third week. Laurate is exclusively found in the veterinary nandrolone preparation Laurabolin, perhaps seen as slightly advantageous over a decanoate ester due to a less frequent injection schedule. Again athletes will most commonly inject this drug weekly, no doubt in part due to its low strength (25mg/ml or 50mg/ml).

credits-from anabolex....wirtten by member-jackyl

[blond_bomber2]

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum...ading+test+cyp

[blond_bomber2]

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum...ading+test+cyp

[blond_bomber2]

thats all i can find right now..i have some more in my favorites but theres too mnay lol..i cant find em!!..enjoy bros.....

[Dizzy]

Andy13 is the man.

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum...threadid=47800

[preist943]

Originally posted by Dizzy
Are you disagreeing with priest943? Because he was talking about suspension....not sustanon.

thx bro i was wondering why everyone was talking about sus i dont think my buff bro saw the p susp lol

[strongerthanall]

Thanks blond bomber for the info! I'm gonna sit back, read it, and try to digest all that information. Take care...

[buffarat]

Yeah..........my bad. I wasnt reading close enough........good shit BB2. Very informative. I had most of that info but the way i learned it must have been a little different. Oh and thanks for pointing that shit out Dizzy. Sust........Suspension I love em both. Ill go pull my head out of my ass now.

[Dizzy]

Nah buff....the only reason I figured it out cause I thought he said sus at first too. Then I re-read it and saw the p. LOL

[Dizzy]

FRONTLOADS

Beginner

Jumpstart
test prop 75mg ed week 1-3

Cycle
test enanthate or cyp 500mg 1-10
eq 400mg week 1-10

Taper (as longer esters leave the body)
test prop 75mg ed week 11-13
Clomid three days after last shot of prop

or

Frontload
test enanthate 1000mg week 1-2

Cycle
test enanthate 500mg week 1-10
eq 400mg week 1-10

Taper
test prop 75mg ed week 11-13
Clomid three days after last shot of prop

[preist943]

[Originally posted by buffarat [/i]
[ Ill go pull my head out of my ass now. [/B]

lol na bro im a miss spelling fool anyway and most of the time you have to read between the lines to figure out what im saying and im a lazy typer so i love to use abrs