Part 2 - Hope it all fits!
A thread I had saved:
Stew Meat
Pro Bodybuilder
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1195
I recommend 500mg/day.
ALA mimics insulin. It works in the same way that insulin does by shuttling glucose into the muscle cells. It doesn't matter if you are a diabetic or not, it works like insulin. There's no difference in the cells of a diabetic and non-diabetic.
-Stew
Fonz
Elite Bodybuilder
I'll explain how ALA works for the bodybuilder.
Subject A consumes a diet of 3000Kcal a day. He follows a regime composed of 60% carbs/30%
protein/10%fat. In other words a typical BB regimen.
That’s;
Kcas=3000
Carbs=1800/4=450g
protein=900/4=225g
Fat=300/9=33g
Now, his muscles are capable of holding 375g of glycogen. He however is eating 450g. Thats 75g too many(300Kcal), an after 12 days on this diet he will pick up 1lb of fat.
Now, lets add 600mg ALA/day in divided doses.
ALA will increase glucose up-take into the muscles by roughly 40%.
His muscles were capable of holding 375g of carbs but now due to the ALA they can hold: 375g+(375*0.4)=525g of carbs. So now, he is consuming 450g of carbs and is capable of storing 525g of carbs. (A deficit of 75g or 300Kcal)
By adding some cardio at 60-70% intensity for 45min (around 300Kcal caloric expenditure), he now loses 1lb of fat every 12 days, instead of gaining 1lb of fat.
Do you now see the benefit of ALA?
Its an excellent supplement in my opinion.
Godspeed
Verbal Gorilla
Cool Novice
Registered: Apr 2000
Location:
Posts: 73
So ALA would be perfect with GH due to increase of GLUT4 pathways...
Fonz
Elite Bodybuilder
Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Mt. Olympus
Posts: 1846
Yes VG. ALA would overcome GH-induced insulin resistance. Another drug which overcomes GH-induced insulin resistance is TROGLITAZONE. Another diabetic drug.
Godspeed
WonderWoman
Cool Novice
Registered: Apr 2000
Location: BFE
Posts: 247
Okay, now I get it. ALA allows me to have a calorie deficit at a higher level. Thereby assisting me with maintaining adequate caloric intake to be muscle sparing, yet allowing me to still be in enough calorie debt to enhance
fat loss. I also understand that 600mg/day divided equally would be optimum dosage. Again thanks gentlemen – WW
Lawnsaver
Olympian
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: FL
Posts: 2799
Fonz, what would you say is more effective, ala or metaformin hcl? They do similar things, correct?
"ALA will increase glucose up-take into the muscles by roughly 40%."
"By adding some cardio at 60-70% intensity for 45min (around 300Kcal caloric expenditure), he now loses 1lb of fat every 12 days, instead of gaining 1lb of fat."
I have been told that I have to use/burn off the gluecose before I begin to burn fat. If this is true it looks like I have to do extra cardio because I took ALA. This obviously isn't how it works so please explain.
Fonz
Elite Bodybuilder
Registered: Jun 2000
Location: Mt. Olympus
Posts: 1846
quote:
Originally posted by Rockaho
I'm still a bit confused.
"ALA will increase glucose up-take into the muscles by roughly 40%."
"By adding some cardio at 60-70% intensity for 45min (around 300Kcal caloric expenditure), he now loses 1lb of fat every 12 days, instead of gaining 1lb of fat."
I have been told that I have to use/burn off the glucose before I begin to burn fat. If this is true it looks like I have to do extra cardio because I took ALA. This obviously isn't how it works so please explain.
I'll clear it up.
Before taking ALA you were eating 75g carbs too many that were being converted into fat.(300*12)=3600Kcal which is 1.03lbs of fat.
Now, with the addition of ALA your muscle are now able to hold 75g more than the amount of carbs you're currently eating. Therefore no carbs are converted into fat:
Therefore, you now have 3 options.
1. You can eat 75g more carbs(due to the ALA) to increase your glycogen stores with no increase in fat.
2. You can remain with the same diet and not lose/gain any fat. (as opposed to gaining 1lb of fat every 12 days)
3. Since you have created a 75g carb deficit in your bodies glycogen stores, you have the option of doing cardio to take advantage of that deficit, and lose some fat. (Losing 1lb fat every 12 days as opposed to gaining 1lb fat)
Hope that helped.
ALA has no side-effects. The only thing that I could find was that some people experience a small rash due to it.(Almost all chemical do this). Some people just can't tolerate anything. No down-regulation of the glut-4's occurs and ALA can be used indefinitely. It is also the BEST anti-oxidant on the planet, due to the fact that its both fat and water soluble (a phospholipid).
Lawnsaver:
Metformin HCL (glucophage) increases glucose transport by 10-40% depending on the individual. It also has some ability to stop the production of glucose from carbs.(increases thermogenesis) It is however a DRUG(requires a prescription) while you can go buy the ALA at a local GNC. I'd take ALA over Metformin any-time as the Metformin gives me gas, abdominal discomfort, heart-burn, and makes you lose your apetite since it decreases the rate of gastric emptying. (This alone might make Metformin suitable for dieting) Metformin used to be far cheaper than ALA(and hence BB'ers used it more), but now ALA's price has gone down considerably and more people are starting to use it. Now, if only they could re-start production of PHENFORMIN <sob>. 8 times more powerful than metformin.
Godspeed
I usually don't tell people to go buy this or that, but yesterdays thread on lipoic acid showed me that Lipoic acid is a very misunderstood supplement. That's right it IS A SUPPLEMENT which has drug-like effects. The only reason why our good friends at the FDA couldn't make it into a drug is because lipoic acid is naturally occurring.(Thank you Senator Hatch). Anyways, to make a long story short Lipoic acid also called thioctic acid, is of the B-class of vitamins and has some pretty fabulous metabolic properties. I will list them: 1. Increases glucose up-take by the muscle-cells by 50%. This permits you to hold 50% more glycogen. I.e. you can eat 50% more carbs. 2. This means that it increases the sensitivity of the muscle cells at the expense of the fat cells. It is one hell of a nutrient partitioning agent. You WILL gain less fat/more muscle on this supplement. This is a scientific fact. 3. Lipoic Acid is both fat and water soluble (a phospholipid), and can enter the cell. 4. It is the premier anti-oxidant on the PLANET. It is stronger than vitamin C and vitamin E, and as a bonus amplifies both VitC's and VitE's effects. 5. PROTECTS NERVES FROM NERVE DAMAGE. ALSO REGENERATES THEM. This is for MeanOne regarding his thread that said nerves coul not grow/be regrown. If you have any back problems or pinched nerves etc..... ALA will do the trick. 6. ALSO OF EXTREMELY IMPORTANT VALUE. IT HELPS REGENERATE LIVER TISSUE WHEN NOTHING ELSE WILL. This includes
milk thistle, Cranberry extract, and all the other popular
liver protectants........This alone should make it worthwile for the bodybuilder. Bet all you Fina users didn't know that. I've done VERY long 17-aa cycles with multiple 17-aa
steroids with no side-effects. Needless to say lipoic acid was my secret weapon. These are some of the more pronounced benefits of Lipoic acid, but it is by no means complete. It has also showed to protect from DNA damage, slow the on-set of AIDS, and is regarded to be one of the premier anti-aging drugs on the planet. People have generally seen ALA in supplements like Cell-Tech and other
creatine transport products, MRP's etc... and have decided to skip it because it was just too pricey....but no more.... Due to increased demand, it is very cheap now., and very accessible to all. I HIGHLY recommend it. Common dosage is 200mg 3 times a day. Hope this was informative enough....... Godspeed
Fonz
Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From: Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 02:52 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
Bumping this thing back up for al you oral users. Godspeed
Spunky Freak Posts: 2026 From: USA Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 02:54 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
I'll be sure and get some post-cycle to take w/
glutamine. this may be something else to help retain gains.... who knows.
Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From: Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 03:00 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by Spunky: I'll be sure and get some post-cycle to take w/
glutamine. this may be something else to help retain gains.... who knows.
Definitely, as it is the best nutrient-partitioning substance after
steroids that I know of. It also has no impact on the HPTA axis. Very good for recovery Godspeed
The_Iron_Game Freak Posts: 2498 From: Registered: Oct 2000 posted March 14, 2001 03:29 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
Good post Could you please clarify what you mean by the following: 1. Increases glucose up-take by the muscle-cells by 50%. This permits you to hold 50% more glycogen. I.e. you can eat 50% more carbs. I spotted something in there and was wondering if it was a typo.
amp Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 516 From: Anytown, USA Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 03:52 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
I also would like more info on the 50% increased glycogen storage. If that's the case it should cause your muscles to be much more full and pumped all the time. Have you noticed a physical difference in your physique when using the ALA? Can you provide where any documented info or research is about this. I am not questioning the validity of this statement, I just want to learn more about it and how it accomplishes this.
Phreaky Amateur Bodybuilder Posts: 230 From: Registered: Mar 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:02 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
ALA is very potent if used at the proper times and dosages. 200mg with breakfast and 400-600mg post workout with a high carb-high
protein shake. I have been using it for years with excellent results. Glucose uptake was increased dramatically that = increased pumps and less BF%. I am for the first time going to experiment with the real thing - insulin. I want to know how much stronger it is.
Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From: Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:11 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by The_Iron_Game: Good post Could you please clarify what you mean by the following: 1. Increases glucose up-take by the muscle-cells by 50%. This permits you to hold 50% more glycogen. I.e. you can eat 50% more carbs. I spotted something in there and was wondering if it was a typo.
Sorry for the wait guys, but I had to answer my mobile. Here goes, In our muscle cells, there are 2 kinds of glucose transporters. Glut-1 and Glut-4. While Glut-1 is totally genetic, and the amount you have at birth is the amount you will have throughout your natural life, Glut-4 on the other hand is not. Things that affect glut-4 transporters are training and drugs such as ALA and Metformin. (Metformin BTW only increases glucose up-take by 10-40% depending on the individual) What ALA does is increase the number of glut-4 transporters drastically that are in the muscle cells therefore letting them increase the amount of glucose they can "suck-up" into the muscle cell. The increase in glut-4 transporters was shown to increase glucose up-take by 50% at my specified dosage. As you know 1gram of glucose=1 gram of carbs. Now, the amount of glycogen muscles can normally hold is roughly 350g. If the muscle-cells increase their glucose up-take by 50%, they will be able to hold 175g more glucose(175 more carbs) to a total of 525g carbs. That’s 700Kcal extra you could eat a day, without getting fat. And
amp, IT WOULD DEFINATELY make your muscles fuller. Godspeed
The_Iron_Game Freak Posts: 2498 From: Registered: Oct 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:43 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
Fonz I am still not clear on something, I believe you have made a slight mistake in your figures. Once your muscles have been saturated with glycogen say after 5-7 days then by consuming this extra 700cals every day is not all going to be used to get into the muscle and replenish and increase glycogen stores. It is pretty much similar to the effects of
creatine. You start off a loading dose and once the muscle has been saturated you can start with the maintain dose, any more and it is simply wasted. I also find it very unlikely that if I consume 5000 calories of carbs a day that I can consume an extra 2500 calories of carbs without putting on fat. This is not a flame but that is rediculous. The carbs would have to be spread out a day and excess calories over what the muscle needs to grow will be stored as fat although this lipoic acid will very much reduce this. Peace
Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From: Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:50 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by The_Iron_Game: Fonz I am still not clear on something, I believe you have made a slight mistake in your figures. Once your muscles have been saturated with glycogen say after 5-7 days then by consuming this extra 700cals every day is not all going to be used to get into the muscle and replenish and increase glycogen stores. It is pretty much similar to the effects of
creatine. You start off a loading dose and once the muscle has been saturated you can start with the maintain dose, any more and it is simply wasted. I also find it very unlikely that if I consume 5000 calories of carbs a day that I can consume an extra 2500 calories of carbs without putting on fat. This is not a flame but that is rediculous. The carbs would have to be spread out a day and excess calories over what the muscle needs to grow will be stored as fat although this lipoic acid will very much reduce this. Peace
Lipoic acid is not a licence to eat carbs. But, that last part you said is exactly what LIpoic acid is good for. Maximizing Glycogen storage while minimizing fat storage from too many carbs. I think in general people eat WAY TOO many carbs. Try eating 500g Carbs or less with lipoic and you will gain little if no fat. If you eat like 800g carbs/day then everything is different don't you think? Godspeed
Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From: Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 04:58 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
I'll be a little more concise. Maintenance for me is 3000Kcal. If I follow a 60% carb/40%prot/20%fat diet, then 1800 of those 3000Kcal come from carbs. That’s 450grams. Now, I can normally hold 375g Carbs in my muscles, so I'm eating 75g extra carbs. These 75g Carbs(300Kcal) will go into fat storage. That’s roughly 1 pound of fat every 12 days. Now, lets say I Add lipoic acid. And increase my glucose up-take and carb storage. Then my muscles can hold: 375g+375*0.5=563g Carbs. If I'm now consuming 450g Carbs a day, I'm creating a 113g carb(452 Kcal) differential. If I do cardio I could then lose 1 pound of fat every 8 days instead of gaining one pound every 12 days, solely through the addition of ALA. Godspeed
The_Iron_Game Freak Posts: 2498 From: Registered: Oct 2000 posted March 14, 2001 05:06 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
Thats where I noted the irregularity, primarily being an individual thing. Some respond well others do not. Me being more concise = 8000cals/day bulking and found it hard to believe that I could eat another 2500 calories of carbs without adding fat. Even with insulin you can put on fat At the end of the day its all about calorie manipulation Peace
Fener Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 478 From:r ome italy Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 06:58 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
ok fonz i bought ala and i'm carbing up with great results but i have to disagree with you theory. let's say you can normally hold 350gs of glucose in your muscles. and let's say you start supplementing with ala so you'll be able to hold 560g of glucose. i see you will create a deficit of 210x4=840kcals. ok now, after a while your muscles have reached saturation holding 560g of glucose.
at this point how can you create a caloric deficit since you have already reached saturation and no more extra carbs are being stored?
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Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 07:09 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by Fener: ok fonz i bought ala and i'm carbing up with great results but i have to disagree with you theory. let's say you can normally hold 350gs of glucose in your muscles. and let's say you start supplementing with ala so you'll be able to hold 560g of glucose. i see you will create a deficit of 210x4=840kcals. ok now, after a while your muscles have reached saturation holding 560g of glucose. at this point how can you create a caloric deficit since you have already reached saturation and no more extra carbs are being stored?
After you reach saturation, you're obviously not going to be able to lose any weight. You still have to work out while on ALA. So, if you took 350g Carbs WHILE working out and taking ALA(basically what you were doing before with the exception of the ALA) you WILL be able to lose weight..... Godspeed
Fener Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 478 From: rome italy Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 07:18 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
so you mean that once you've reached saturation you will create a deficit only on workout days,when after training glycogen stores have been depleted, and you will again be able to store more carbs as glycogen, got it right?
Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 07:22 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by Fener: so you mean that once you've reached saturation you will create a deficit only on workout days, when after training glycogen stores have been depleted, and you will again be able to store more carbs as glycogen, got it right?
Right on Fener. Gives you a hell of a lot more lee-way doesn't it..... Godspeed
Fener Pro Bodybuilder Posts: 478 From: rome italy Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 07:39 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
yeah, btw i carbed up today with 800mg of ala and when i looked in the mirror i was fucking bloated! just hope it doesn't increase also fat cells volume as someone was saying in another thread.
Fonz Elite Bodybuilder Posts: 1009 From:Mt. Olympus Registered: Jun 2000 posted March 14, 2001 07:44 PM Staff Use Only: IP: Logged
quote:
Originally posted by Fener: yeah, btw i carbed up today with 800mg of ala and when i looked in the mirror i was fucking bloated! just hope it doesn't increase also fat cells volume as someone was saying in another thread.
1g of carbs forms 1g of glycogen complexed with 4g of water. So, if you take 50% more carbs then glycogen is increased from 350g to 525g(just an example). Water retention is also increased from 1.4KG to 2.1Kg. Thats a 1lb water increase....... Godspeed
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